For believers, does God exist outside of time?
So, I had an out of body experience. I'm not going to go into detail; however, I went into sleep paralysis, and then could suddenly see through my eyelids. The first time, I didn't know my "body" was asleep until I looked at my alarm clock in my room, and for the life of me I could not read the clock!!! I was so alarmed, I ended up waking myself up and returned to *waking life* so-to-speak.
Well, this happens every now and again. I was in a religion class a few semesters ago (more like an atheist class if you ask me) but anyway - the professor was explaining how if God was all-knowing, then free-will cannot exist. In other words, He knows what we are going to do tomorrow, so it must be predetermined - and - not free-will. Now, my initial reaction was just that God knows what we'll do tomorrow, but he didn't chose it, he allowed us to choose it and so on.
But then, I started pondering this some. The next time I went into an OBE, I started asking people "what are you doing tomorrow" and my consciousness just could not imagine a "tomorrow." I couldn't even imagine a "yesterday." I knew the words - but I didn't know the meanings. All I knew during my OBE was what was happening NOW.
So then, I pondered on whether or not God's current state is something like this - where time is nonexistent. So maybe, He doesn't think of "tomorrow" and what we're going to do, rather, He thinks in "present," but *knows* what our next move will be because he ultimately knows what is going through our brains at the present time?
I don't know if this is going anywhere...I mean, it's just something went that I thought about. I know it has many faults and whatnot, but I just thought it was interesting. Any opinions (not attacks) are much appreciated. =]
That is what eternal life is all about. It is a quality of existence that exists in eternity - beyond the realm of time.
Listen to this man's experience........
Time doesn't technically exist; It's just a human concept. Time is an idea; not a tangible 'thing'. Therefore, if Gods exists, then the answer is yes. Time just isn't there.
if god is not concerned with time, why is it so important that it took him 6 days to create the world, and one day to rest?
Time means nothing to God. He wants what is best for you but sometimes we make the wrong decisions where we must pay the consequences.
My definition of god isn't that he is a sky daddy, so what you are discussing here is delusion.
It happens to all of us...usually when we are tired, or on drugs.
Most of us don't take this sort of thing very seriously.
Yes God , The Father ,the Son and The Holy Spirit do exist outside of Time. He knows Tomorrow and the Past He Omnipresent!
Your OBE is a common phenomenon that is purely physical.
Knowing and predetermination are not the same thing.
Yes, God is outside of time.
Wow, that is so Cool. I had never thought about it that way. I was going to say God exist outside of time b/c time is a man made thing...but I hadn't put two and two toguether. It makes sence though...but before...I had thought that the way God saw it was that we have many paths to choose...so we can choose what we eat, what we wear ...every day...also we can choose our careers and so on....but our choises may be limited...money...social class...beliefs...so maybe is like a game. So someone "asks" you what are you going to eat...and God already KNOWS the answer cuz he's the one who most knows you, so for him, you can't surprice him. Do you think he ever laughs or if he has emotions? or...cuz does he laugh at jokes?...he already knows what they are going to be.....so idk... 🙂 good pondering...
God is all knowing and outside of time...free will does exist..God chooses those that are his based on foreknowledge which did not invalidate our choice . The bible is full of prophecy so specific that it even named a man Cyrus the Meado Persian king as the one to destroy Babylon and liberate Israel over 100 years be for he was born. It described his battle strategy , when he arrived Daniel showed him the scroll with his name in it. God loves all and offers that love to everyone, he already knows who will respond. For us it is happening in real time for /god it is like watching an old video. your everyday life demonstrates your freedom of choice. you are right religion teachers are often men who do not know God.
Yes, God created time. He is outside it.
I used to be addicted to Astral Projection. I did it for some time, even after I became a Christian. I cannot do it any more. That said, your statement that you could not read the clock suggest you were dreaming rather than projecting.
You didn't have an out-of-body experience. There's no such thing. Sleep paralysis is a well-understood medical phenomenon and explains many so-called "mystical" experiences.
Being "outside of time" is to not exist, since time is the measure of existing or, more specifically, change. No, you can't cop-out by saying your god doesn't change. To know anything is a state of change. To go from no creating to creation is a change, and vise versa. Even if you can only conceive of now, you're still in time.
First off... You're Right.. most "religion" classes in college are Atheism 101. I don't know why, Do Atheists actually teach them, OR, after studying soo many religions/philosophies, etc. do the professors just become numb to the idea.
Muck like many Anthropology professors have a very subjective sense of culture and right and wrong even, because for every taboo in society, they can find at least 1 culture where that's the norm.
I don't know why for sure... but simply being a Religious Studies Professor, does not make one religious, which is ironic.
It would be like a Engineering professor not putting much stock in engineering, or a Doctor, not believing that modern medicine can help people
I agree with your over all idea. This is basically one of several possible ways to explain God.
I've answered several questions about the nature of Freewill and questions about "if God created everything, who created God?"
I've stated it as one of several scenarios.....
A) He is non-linear in how he experiences time. - Time can run backwards, forwards, stand still, whatever, but regardless.. his view of events is not linear as in A then B, like ours. So quite frankly his view might be M, Z, J, A, K, Q, B
B) Time is all experienced together, at once, as in one moment, past, present, future, all happening NOW. This is closest to your idea. Everything happened JUST NOW. So like (A) things are not linear, but instead, they are all at once. Creation and the end of the world..JUST HAPPENED, just now, right this second, to God. It is easy to see our actions and the results of those actions.. because to GOD, it is all just 1 big moment. Eternity, it may turn out, is just 1 moment in time.....which lasts forever.
C) Time isn't like Sci-Fi depicts it. With a Past, a Present and a Future. There is only the Past and the Present....the future has yet to be written. Sci-Fi assumes the future exists as in it is a place we can GO... but what if it isn't? God is "all knowing" in that he knows ALL there is to know...but the future doesn't exist..so he can't know what doesn't exist. HOWEVER, being all knowing and a god.. thee God, He can predict the outcome of our actions with maybe 99.999999999% accuracy, but it is only a prediction, UNTIL it actually happens.
(C) side steps certain issues that non-theists have with Freewill, BUT seems to weaken God's omni-potentcy and makes him something that is just "along for the ride" It means we can "surprise" God with both our actions and the outcome of our actions.. so MOST Theologians reject (C) entirely.
My Atheist friend calls it the "snowglobe" affect. From within the snowglobe...things look chaotic and there is no cause-n-effect. However to the person outside the snowglobe..there is a reason and pattern to what is going on. To my Atheist friend.. determining if God is Inside or Outside the snowglobe is the KEY to understanding Freewill.
To HIM.. either God is IN the snowglobe with us.. and isn't omni-potent and omni-science and therefore is along for the ride OR is outside the snowglobe and therefore he is the one "causing" everything to happen.
If he is inside, then he is just as 'surprised' by the events as we are, and then why do we call him God? - maybe there is no god? BUT, freewill surely exists.
If he is outside, then he is surely God, but then there is no freewill, cause he is the one moving he snowglobe.
However, after pondering it.... I reject his ideas. I think they represent a False Dichotomy
1) Freewill is NOT about doing whatever we want.. about "surprising" God. It merely means the ability to formulate our "will" without GOD interfering. It is our innate ability to realize what we want and act on it and to realize that this is different then what God wants. That allows us to "choose" to follow him or not and to love him or not. He only promises to not mettle with what options we can come up with, and what we desire. ACTION, it a totally different thing. It has NOTHING, let me repeat, NOTHING to do with him knowing what we will do or not. It is more of a Promise by the creator to NOT force our WILLs. Again, what we do, is totally separate from our will. Think of your WILL as the options, what we can conceive of. What we DO, depends on many factors. We very much restrict our options on our own. God merely promises to not artificially, externally stifle us, that's all Freewill means.
EXAMPLE: I will ALWAYS choose Mexican food if given a choice what food I want for lunch. I can choose anything, but I always choose the same thing. I limit myself.
My coworkers KNOW this about me..but they do not stop me from suggesting Mexican. I can "freely form my will" - but from there.. no guarantees.
I'm surprised a religious studies professor doesn't understand this distinction and uses a very OLD and tired non-theist argument, which completely misunderstands the concept of freewill.
2) The implications of not having Freewill are too horrible to imagine. We all become cosmic Chumps.. perpetual victims of fate. We can not possibly take ANY responsibility for our actions. We are as much a victim of fate as anyone else. If I kill someone, I can not be blamed..because there is no choice in the matter.. I was always destined to kill. Far from punishing me, I should be pitted, as a tragic figure of fate which no matter HOW I tried.. I was forever destined to murder.
I can't possibly imagine a Universe like that.. and as a Human being in a society of other people.. can't accept that no one is to blame for anything we do.
There HAS TO BE freewill or else I can't even take credit for getting up this morning or driving to work safely.
I can't take credit for the jokes I tell..the work I do, ANY of the choices I make.
This is the moral dilema that some non-theists would put us in, by trying to remove Freewill. But as I've said, they have misunderstood the nature of Freewill. It is not about fate or what we were 'going to do' as we limit our own options WAY more then God, society, or the Universe does.
I don't know where this puts us in regards to the snowglobe.I think we have to add more to the analogy. I don't think it is as simple as Chaos or God causing the snowglobe to swirl.
I think God keeps his hands OFF the snowglobe, but sometimes talks to the individual bits of glitter within it and gives them suggestions as to where they might float next. I think he can see the big picture better then we can and see cause and affect of all our individual collisions within the globe. I also think we place ourselves in our OWN snowglobes as well.. individually limiting our options, restricting our movements, artificially. Sometimes ignorant or the larger snowglobe we're in.
I like to answer your question about "Free Will"
Basically your saying that because God already knows what your going to do before you do it God is violating your free will.
In the bible look at Isaac two sons Esau and Jacob. Even before they were born God said, "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated.
This is also true God already knows the number of souls who will receive Him and reject Him.
It is like this. You are watching a movie and every thing is new to you. But not to the producer.
God is the producer of His whole plan from front to back. God created you in His thoughts long before He created the world. Know is this time that God has selected for you to come into existence.
From Gods thoughts God can create from the invisible to the visible. From Gods thought he made substance and then breathed life within it.
For more proof God is real visit my site.